This comment is a particular stand out, in a thread of hilarious comments… because 1 of my fav running movie gags is in Home Alone where every single person who pulls up to the house knocks over the lawn ornament by the front door
We don't use the word 'fragmentation' anymore as it is an obvious sound play on 'menstruation' which paints female emotions as inherently combative an vulgar. If you do use the word, the perferred presentation is fragMENtation, to bring the readers attention to likely cause of the issue.
Oh my gosh, its good to hear its not just me haha. It often seems like we are so rare, when its prolly just that the others are much "louder".
Striving for balance can be hard sometimes.
I know I just said this too, but even saying “I hate the predominant presence of the Human Rights movement because it gets too caught up in intellectual superiority and misses the focus of ‘help your neighbors’” is somehow enough to set off most people.
Without adding detail, saying “I hate democrats” looks the same whether it’s coming from a MAGAt or a leftist that is sick of moral virtue signaling combined with inaction of the Democratic Party lol
Yeah seriously, if you give any criticism on how the movement could be improved and stuff people are doing that is making it harder to achieve our goal, instead people only hear "I disagree with everything the left stands for and I definitely voted for Trump" and use how angry they get at someone as a way to virtue signal. There are no civil discussions.
A joke about leftwing infighting or, because of the recent win of the social democrat Mamdani, it refers to how lots of left wing ideologies/groups mistrust social democrats and see them as traitors to left wing ideology/theory/revolution.
And generally social democrats aren’t generally considered to be a part of “the left” by leftists more than in some nominal sense, since they still often promote capitalist interests
I think yank style leftists performatively hate modern socdems becuase they performatively treat capitalism as an absolute evil and therefore any group that doesn't want to get rid of it completely must also be evil.
But even then they cant ignore the fact that almost every good policy in the 20th century was done by socdems, and the places where socdems stayed in power like scandi are the best places on earth, so they claim those socdems as socialists instead.
Every now and again socdems abroad beef with yank leftists over this last part. Even though [scandi socdems / historical yank socdems] and modern yank socdems are ideologically identical one group is coveted by leftists and the other ostracized.
I think in at least some cases it's part of a refusal to accept incremental change and/or harm reduction as a political strategy. A lot of socdem/progressive types also hate capitalism and would be happy to be rid of it but don't see Revolution Now as the best path forward for one reason or another (likelihood of success, logistical challenges, risk of unintended consequences, etc.).
I think in at least some cases it's part of a refusal to accept incremental change and/or harm reduction as a political strategy.
"Well, you see, if half of Americans starve to death during Trump's Presidency, the rest of them will finally open their eyes and join the Communist Revolution! This is the ONLY way to effect change! I will, of course, be in the latter group who finally brings down the evil corporatists."
I feel like one of the things that gets lost in these sort of discussions is the difference between free market economics and capitalism. I hate that they seem to get lumped together on both sides and it seems like a disservice.
Cause modern socdems are realist peddling slow gains. Leftists what immediately change on every issue but NEED change on their most important one. They will turn on Dems if they aren't going to get that need satisfied.
Definitely, but I think it’s prudent to take the medical marijuana approach on this topic, let people become more used to something and normalize it, and it becomes a lot harder to do away with. That strategy can be adapted to get people used to the government actually providing services for them.
I'm pretty politically minded, and I've given up on these internal labels because they just don't matter. We live under a first-past-the-post system resulting in two large-tent parties due to Duverger's Law. Internal labels aren't good for much other than intellectuals stroking their beards and clucking their tongues.
Party members would be wise to talk about policy rather than apply labels to themselves that half their constituents won't understand and the other half will hate.
And generally social democrats aren’t generally considered to be a part of “the left” by leftists
Which is hilarious because Liberals are considered "the extreme left" by 60% of the country, and Liberals are far to the right of Social Democrats.
The "left" in this country needs to learn that you need 51% of the vote to win. Actually something like 65% of the vote to overcome the Republican's inherent advantage in the Senate.
Keep dismissing everyone who is a potential ally in the name of leftist purism and you'll see nothing but... well exactly what we're seeing today: The Endless Slide to the Right.
Who do you think are leftists? Because if you only include fringe groups that have no meaningful political power, then yes you are right. However, if you include groups that actually govern, the most successful leftist governments are exclusively social democrats.
Also, I'm not going to get into a semantics debate, but show me an actual socialist nation that exists on earth today. All I see are fascist dictatorships that use the word socialism to describe themselves (look up the definition of fascism and tell me how it doesn't apply to China, N. Korea, Russia).
While I agree with you, I don't think there are any actual and prominent Democratic Socialists who have been elected in the US. AOC, Bernie, Mamdani all call themselves Democratic Socialists, but have all distanced themselves, to some extent, from the DSA. Also, policy wise, they are all socdems. Even if they believe in socialism I think anyone that gets elected to office understands that it's hardly realistic to achieve through electoralism; nor is it the mandate from the people who got them elected.
As i understand it, Social democrats care primarily about social issues like abortion, LGBT, immigration. While more traditional leftists care more about financial equality. While I care about social issues, keep in mind the reason so many democrat politicians are focusing more on that than taxing the rich because so many rich that sponsor them want them to focus on things that won't take money from them. Meanwhile the conservatives that sponsor the Republicans also dont want to focus on income equality either and want republicans to be anti-lgbt, immigration or abortion. The rich are focused on keeping both parties focused on keeping the working class poor.
I support refining because replacing has more opposition and its easier to sell. By refining I really mean reining it in so that non altruistic people don't have as much power. I say this wanting capitalism to eventually be replaced because we have systems that provide for everyones needs
The democratic party is extremely conservative, in the traditional sense of the word (maintaining the status quo). Mamdani is seeking to change the status quo. Cuomo campaigned largely on being a purebred member of the parties old guard, who would have maintained the status quo. Just because a city is dominated by one political party, it doesn't mean all the voters are aligned on what that party should do.
But they're ready to throw their support behind robin hood any day now, just as soon as he appears. And only so far as they can avoid being directly implicated if he gets caught.
I would say(at least in the US)its not "leftist" infighting. Rather a result of having only two parties with any hope of winning.
One party is lock step with each other for the most part, while the other is comprised of everyone who doesn't fall into the narrow, single minded, antiquated view of the first group.
One party gets things done(unfortunately) because they are all, more or less, on the same page. The other party is made up of millions of voices all desperately trying to be heard while screaming at party leaders who don't want to piss off their corporate overlords.
Its not "leftist infighting". Its a bunch of different groups, who don't agree on lots of things, being forced under one umbrella because the only other viable option is the gop. And "fuck conservatives" is the one thing we all agree on.
In other words, we need more than two viable parties. If I had an actual progressive party to vote for(one that had a real chance)I would never vote for a Democrat again. Both parties know they would loose some power if we allowed more parties freely into the system. So it's one of the few points where they agree.
Its not. Which is the issue. Imo, o e of the biggest issues with voter turnout for democrats is that lots of people have lost faith in the party to enact real change. Dems talk a big game about huge changes we need to make, while also being beholden to the same corporate masters the gop is. Because of this the dems talk a big game but then sit on their hands once elected. They want just enough change to say "see? We did something." while not changing too much and risk pissing off their big donors.
People want change just not the sort of "bandage on a gushing wound" kind the dems have in offer.
As progressive as they want their voter base to see, which isnt much anyway. They still support the billionaires and corporations just as much as the republican party.
It’s not. It’s the complete opposite of progressive.
Hence why they’re two different ideas/parties. I live in a pretty left leaning city. Our local government is democrats running against progressives. We don’t have republicans running for city council very often if at all. The dems are the republicans lol.
I've been downvoted for this many times in the past, but the difference is - the Right will find a reason they can hold their nose and vote for their candidate. The Left will find any reason they can to not vote for their candidate.
More parties would in theory help, but these always seem to be top office or nothing. They aren't building any base (maybe Mamdani is a start) but in the US it's always President/Governor or nothing.
Also, I've lived in a town that was run by a 3rd party. Their plans to ensure that downtown was untouched by 'big box' led to massive traffic issues, need for expansion of roads to handle said traffic, and a need for expanded public transportation (not a bad thing, but) because the jobs were not on routes running with the frequency needed.
3rd, 4th, 5th parties do not save you from dumbfuckery.
if you look at the outfits this is a bit more nuanced, as it is showing one side (the further left marxist/leninist side) expressing hatred toward the more mild left, while the more mild left doesn't really even think much about the marxist/leninsists.
Is that actually the origin for why it's left vs right? It can get so confusing in regards to what left and right actually means when you dissect specific policies.
Using monarchy vs anti-monarchy as a starting point from back in the day explains a bit why left vs right a couple of hundred later can get a bit confusing.
In that explanation in post-revolutionary France. After the fall of the first republic you had the right. Conservative monarchists typically. The radical left, who wanted a return to the revolutionary republic. And then you had the Liberals, which is in the original sense meant opening up elections to represent those not in the aristocracy as well as more economic liberalism they could be pro or less for the monarchy. They obviously sat on different sides of the chamber which lead to the right and left.
some leftists are really unhappy online ppl, just like the right, while others are just livin their life & getting weird hate from such ppl
at the same time there are significant splits in the left that shouldnt be glossed over. point is, ignore the weirdos unless they are directly fucking w your work
I think the biggest fracture in the "left" right now is caused by the establishment Dems actually just being a moderate right wing party on everything except social issues, that play interference against any actual change
I don't think most progressive leftists, regardless of their niche beliefs that they argue about, think the current system is working or that billionaires should control everything in our lives. A lot of the vitriol is just natural due to the currently failing dem establishment party and a rabid fan base of people that believed they were the only option, which we now see is not the case
This is a good take; also the right being ratcheted so far, well, right, it means the "left" is an extremely big tent now that can't possibly contain all its permutations under one roof.
My all time favorite was when a white woman told me that it was not a time for white male voices to be heard. When I pointed out that I was, in fact, not white, her response was to say that I was “white presenting” and so that kind of response was something I would have to expect and tolerate.
I asked her if she was judging me based on my perceived race and how that was okay. Her best friend’s husband, who had been a close friend of mine for literally over two decades, jumped in and told me to stop mansplaining. It’s been almost a decade and I’ve talked to him once since then.
The original thing I said was that we needed to be careful about generalizing people lest we drive them out of the Democrat tent and into the arms of Republicans ready to swarm them with rhetoric and propaganda.
Please note that this comment is designed to highlight the Thought Policing nature of certain people on the left and is not in fact an invitation for people on the right to swarm in with rhetoric and propaganda. Just scroll right on past.
I can second this, I acknowledged implicit racism I had while I was in college, a white woman I knew was mortified that I was willing to acknowledge this, and very upset with me. I worked on myself, she stayed the same because she just plain denied having any racist views ( she clearly did) and remained performative progressive while I actually broke down human behavior in my head and fixed my biases. Fast-forward to me having a few decently close black friends while being called racist by the woman with exclusively white friends that just bashes on white people all the time to virtue signal.
For the record, I'm not gonna claim that being white and being a woman is what makes this happen, it's a personality type. SJW (specifically chronically online ones) was the old term for these types of people.
My wife is Latina and this happens to her all the time, down to detail, and it’s always by white leftist. We’re both very progressive but it’s infuriating
My favourite was someone on Reddit calling me a fake leftist for thinking stealing was a crime. Said I probably voted for a fake left-winger like Biden or Harris, to which I had to point out I was one of the dozens of people that doesn't live in America.
Second favourite was people on Bluesky calling me a privileged know-nothing for saying Starmer was better than Boris Johnson and Liz Truss. Called me ableist for not hating Starmer enough, when my first sentence was "I hate Starmer as much as the next person" and I'm disabled myself.
I can tell you thats pretty much whats happening. I myself am not MAGA by any means but im not down with quite a few items that the far left loves to cry about, so my wifes family think she and i are trump loving, bible thumping, lets go brandon flag waving MAGA nut jobs, despite not owning a single trump related item (which they do).
Whenever I see "white presenting" I just think of the racism I grew up with, like, Y'all don't remember the one drop rule? You may think they're white but racist white people KNOW they aren't. I don't know how to get that across, all their doing is making things easier for the racists.
Even if you do have the same beliefs, methods can vary on how to get there. Some leftists are impatient and don't understand that small steps are key to compromise and getting to your endgame. Instead wanting to completely upheave everything and get everything they want right away
Legit a lot of online armchair socialists would rather the US descend into fascism because it might lead to some kind of civil war where they would absolutely totally definitely win and finally overthrow capitalism once and for all. All that pain, suffering, destruction, and death would be worth it to them apparently. And just saying the phrase "harm reduction" causes them to launch into a tirade about how the Trump administration and Democrats are the same actually, and voting is bad because it reinforces the system!
Legit a lot of online armchair socialists would rather the US descend into fascism because it might lead to some kind of civil war where they would absolutely totally definitely win
I know a lot of leftists like this.
It's funny because they are absolutely not the kind of people who would survive a civil war, never mind win a civil war. But they're so sheltered they genuinely don't understand this about themselves.
There's a point where the ouroboros begins eating itself and you realize the farther either direction you go, just a half step further and you cross over to the other side.
Hyper left: OMG ALL FOOD ADDITIVES ARE POISON.
Hyper right: OMG ALL FOOD ADDITIVES ARE POISON, TAKE MY SNAKE OIL.
Yep. I ended up realizing that left ain't the wave after being told my opinions and ideas don't hold any weight because I'm a white male with a desire to have a family. I agree with helping people in need as well as freedom of personal choice, but I'm not going to side with or support people who tell me I'm irrelevant due to things I can't change.
Sounds very similar to some far right teachings, doesn't it?
Actually, seems like you are all wrong. sips hefty poured drink Brian here, you see I actually wrote about a similar premise in a screenplay about a decade ago. You see the folks on the right are the actual leftists for whom love and respect are core components of their ethos, while the guy on the left, is a Russian simp/bot/puppet anonymously causing strife online to create a boogeyman for racists and homophobes to target. Now in my story I… what’s that? No, I haven’t gotten any offers on it yet, still revising… maglopolis wasn’t written in a day you know.
I'd totally read a book about a russian troll pretending so hard to be a strawman LGBTQ character that he realises he's actually happier when people think that's what he is than when he's just his normal self. Let's reboot the flamer to furry pipeline.
The leftist on the right is the type of leftist that unironically says "We'd all be having brunch now" because they only care about themselves, and are purposefully blind to the injustices that don't affect them.
Three people vote for steak, three people vote for burgers. The steak and burger advocates fight over which is better. Four idiots vote for poop, and everyone gets poop.
Leftist love to purity test. I got dog piled just yesterday by a bunch of leftist because I said I voted for trump the first time then Biden and Harris the other two. People saying they don't care about my vote, calling me a bigot, ect.
I'm reminded of the Prodigal Son and how good it was that he came home, rather than being hurt for leaving. But that's a Bible story, so it would make them madder.
...I mean...you voted for trump - they're not going to appreciate that.Some people will be cagey about that unless you own who you were then, what you've learned since and who you are now.
If you were to say you'd vote Trump again if you were back in 2016, that's probably a bridge too far for most progressive people.
I always find this one interesting. Like at this point if someone has voted for him all 3 times, I wont trust them.
At the same time, once? I get that. I was raised Mormon. We listned to conservative radio and watched Fox. It took me a minute after moving out to do a lot of deprogramming.
Looking at the other comments it sounds like you went through something similar. You learned and you grew. I dont see an issue with that.
Democrats are the ones insisting on Purity. Just look at their treatment of Mamdani. They care more about keeping people controlled than putting forth popular policy.
Others are hitting it but I would like to point out that there is a coalition of leftists (especially terminally online ones) who see it as a moral position, not just an economic one. So they will "No true Scottsman" you to death if you don't align with every single idea that they do. Even if you generally agree, you have to agree their way.
I am a person who believes that slurs have a place in day-to-day and am not thrilled with the habit of certain European leftist habits of bigotry towards certain ethnic groups. If you ask a western leftist, I am suddenly as bad as any right-wing bigot because I believe that one shouldn't quarantine off certain words from language altogether if their actual material harm is not measurable (lower end) in modern day, and on the other side I am a "soyleft wokescold who would have our daughters be raped by [insert brown person here]."
The issue is that the reality of leftist political and economic theory is that it's just that, an economic theory with social components to it. The idea that "bigotry is an inherently right-wing position" is not only measurably untrue, but wasn't even agreed upon by all leftists at the time that Marx started talking about it.
Im considered left wing by my right wing mates. We joke and laugh about it. Im considered far right by other left wingers, because I care about my country and couldn't care less about Israel and Palastine.
Basically i have zero left wing friends because a conflict is central to their identity.
The extreme leftists are hateful and hate anyone who doesn't agree with their opinions. Other not so extreme leftists are respectful and just want equality and for everyone to have human rights.
My favorite quote is "no one hates leftists more than other leftists," because if you read any comment thread responding to a prominent leftist online, it's other leftists proving that point true with the most vitriolic gatekeeping accusations you've ever read.
I wish I could say it was the result of poison the well tactics by rich people and government but no. People are just that retarded when it comes to ideal goals vs. pragmatic decision making.
The factions and tribalism of the left. Kind of like the LGB, kind of not liking the T as much, or the communist/socialist libs hating the capitalist lefties. Or the moderate lefties hating the extremists who straight up want Republicans, conservatives, and Christians to die.
And they don’t have disagreements like the majority of Republicans, they just hate each other, and their enemies too of course
Leftist+Liberal= Mental Illness, plus Trump Derange Syndrome! I love it. President Trump and MAGA are kicking Leftist and Liberals asses all over the place. None stop ass kicking.
You have the racist leftists who are only supportive of LGBT+ rights but don't support people of colour as part of their political beliefs.
You have the anti bisexuals/pansexuals who believe that anyone who claims to be anything but straight or gay/lesbian only does so because they're still in the closet or for attention.
You have the "LGB without the T" folks who are anti-trans and who feed into the belief that the transgender community are what is ruining the rest of the community (complete and utter bs)
You also have people who separate creator from created (i.e J.K Rowling and Harry Potter) standing off against people who refuse to separate the creator and the created with the understanding and belief that any support towards something made by someone with destructive beliefs still benefits them.
This isn't to say that the right side don't also have infighting and disagreements. It's just that the left side do have varying degrees of left with right side policies in mind and it goes to show that it isn't as black and white as being solely right or left wing.
There are leftists that will exclude a person if they for example say "I am all supportive to LGBT but the rest of the letters they started to add.. I don't get it and I won't use those weird pronouns and hang out with them". Suddenly they call that person xyzphobic and "cancel" them. They are often destroying private property while protesting. And I get it if they destroy houses of tiranic politicians but scratching someone's Tesla cause of what Elon says is just wrong.
Other leftists are like "hey you think everyone should be paid a livable wage just like us. Come sit with us. We can discuss different views if you'd like and I'll respect yours if it doesn't harm others". They include any one and know that views are a spectrum and not everything is black or white. It's better to have a people that might be just a little bit racist or homophobic (not in a harmful way of course - don't hang out with kkk obviously xD) on your side when you are trying to make a difference in for example tax system or housing issue than to have them against you. Maybe they'll get more open minded but in the meantime let's do something good anyway.
I've read some article about how the first type of leftists drives people away from them while super far right gladly take them and even ignore their skin color and sexual orientation. (have you watched Django? You'll know what I mean)
The raging left makes people think that its better to be on the side of people that shout about "free market" than to be on the side of crazy looking people who cry and call you oppressor when you say something about their gender.
Just like extreme right wing people, there are extreme left wing people.
Funny enough, most leftists sit very slightly left from center, and most right wing people sit very slightly right from center. It's the extremist from both sides that make life difficult.
I mean, they hate JK Rowling for most being as extreme in her views as many of them.. Yet, she is still quite a liberal woman, but hey, you either parrot their views or you're evil and stupid and they will take your creation from you and deem you not worthy of it.
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u/Lady-Deirdre-Skye 18h ago
Leftists are known for fragmentation and infighting. I say this as one of them.
Splitters!